, sergei lavrov saying those forces do not take authority from moscow. no real detail about how this could be resolved, and despite all the friendly language between the spanish foreign minister and russian foreign minister particularly about economic and mutual business interest, when it comes to the legitimate authority in kiev and whether, they're still a long way apart. >> reporter: tom with the latest in madrid. sergei lavrov drew to fly to madrid for talks with secretary of state john kerry. a point he made is that these aren't russian military personnel, is there any way of proving that? have you been able to find out exactly who they are? >> reporter: well, interesting, tim, we've been down to the ukrainian naval made quarters here, there you've got this kind of standoff where you've got some of these russian volunteers, russian self-defense force mingling with what look very much like russian army soldiers without the insignia. they are essentially outside the naval base there, besieging it really is the only way to look at it because the ukrain